"So the question to Rod Dreher is a simple one. What are the churches doing to address the spiritual, cultural, and political concerns of young white men? Men, who are often drowning in a sea of despair and spiritual neglect. Where are the programs? The groups? The outreach? The community support? Where are the answers? Better yet, where is even the faintest attempt at acknowledging the issues plaguing a significant required to maintain a healthy community?"
I've met Dreyer in person and discussed things with him. Nice man, in all the good and bad connotations of the word. He is a spiritual libertarian, which means he always has the wrong answers to the right questions.
I'll be forthright in that I did not watch all the video. If you think that politicians cannot offer you answers, then you have a different worldview, and have not grown beyond rejection of the Enlightenment. You're still a spiritual quietist. If you think that there is not a religion in our Empire, I think you're crazy - there is one, and it is enforced. It might be in the process of shifting - just this weekend I had two companies tell me they had changed hours for Good Friday.
And, as you say, what are the Churches doing for young men? The leaders? What are the laws and politicians doing to support the Churches? What are the communities doing to support the Churches? Where are the societies to support the young men? We are like individuals, a leaf here, a branch there, cast off and adrift without a tree!
This is why I had a note the other day stating that I don't think that we have a true society or culture in America - because we don't have these things, really, en mass, around us. We don't have towns or villages or cities where there is true consensus or support for the families, understanding about what laws are, religion, culture, real young men getting things done and with a vision of what their lives will be like once they grow into families. And a means of really getting that done!
So, while I like Dave, and don't know him NEARLY as well as you, I admit that he's wonderful at building bridges in our community online. But I think sometimes that's also his weakness - being polite when he should push.
If he was my neighbor, I would consider him a project case. Someone I would always, ALWAYS, sit down, have a beer with, and talk with. I might get frustrated. I might even, at times, get heated - simply because that is my own nature and weakness. Especially after a few drinks.
But it would always come back to forgiveness and understanding, I believe. I know many like him, with the same outlooks in life, even in my own community. So it simply is what it is.
But, I can tell you, that the people with those outlooks just get sidelined in real communities. Because they stop making sense when you have to start pouring in real sacrifices, can’t jet set away from problems, and are trying to put down roots for a civilization on a generational time line as he’s really trying to think about.
That or their children move away, and they stop mattering. Which is heartbreaking. Really, truly, heartbreaking.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sadly, I'm starting to accept the reality that there is not hope for his generation. We just need to move on from them and build in spite of their obstructions, and for the ones that actively hinder us we have to mercifully remove them.
I listened to this conversation a few days ago, and I was amazed that Dreher seemed so out of touch. He is somewhat protected by a comfortable lifestyle in a foreign country and does not have to suffer the indignities most of us experience here in the United States; it’s arguably worse in places like the U.K. and Germany (from what I can see). Part of the problem, which you touch on, is Protestantism itself which is a revolutionary movement and implicitly (and explicitly) tears down tradition as part of its ultimate project.
I’m gonna defend Dreher here, even though I don’t really want to. I think he asks a legitimate question to Dave about what the end goal is for New Right guys. Yes, young men are frustrated, but what’s the way of dealing with this? Dave hems and haws before vaguely speaking about denouncing democracy and changing school curriculum. Sorry, he should’ve been ready for this question, and he wasn’t.
Of course, Dreher seems mainly intent on promoting himself and his work more than providing answers of his own. To be fair, The Benedict Option was huge and he can comfortably rest on this book for the rest of days. I’m not interested in his other stuff.
I think we’re all searching for concrete and coherent argumentation on these issues, but this conversation really didn’t get as far as one would expect with these two.
So here’s my simplistic (but I think correct) remedy to the male malaise, which Dave should’ve started with: ban porn. Do this and we’ve already solve 80% the problem dooming today’s dudes. More and more, this is where my mind goes when considering what would help. Everything else is fussing on the margins.
I think this piece speaks very well to the protestant issue (not to say the same issue does not exist in the Catholic or Orthodox community, as it for sure does in Catholic, but I think it is not talked about as much).
While I think there are positive steps forward there needs to be a better community structure built.
From experience, Church is great and going each weekend is important but we also need to actually believe and participate in other ways sometimes as individuals and more often as community, be it fasting, praying or sacraments.
I found the Bible in Year to be a great tool for personal growth.
One large issue is that many churches have large number of boomers and that has positives and negatives.
Boomers are very competent at organizing. While there are many that will condemn them for an "easy ride" Boomers know how to get stuff done. They know process and they know what they are doing.
Boomers however are generally socially liberal. They value toleration of multiculturalism or sexual degeneracy.
And Boomers will also do everything in their power to make you defend their legacy.
There needs to be a separation of Christianity from Liberalism generally and a formation of groups within church (Fraternal and Maternal orders) that are that learn from but reject the boomer Truther regime.
Further it should also be examined if it is time for churches to remove tax exemption (this may be a problem more for Canadian churches)
I have seen many times when running the church as a Charity seems to have become more important than doing Actual Charity. By which the church just becomes a managerial system rather than a institute or bride of Christ.
I agree with Auguste Meyrat that banning porn would be a positive good. Something else that I think is also important is obtaining skills. One’s church could have construction projects/programs that schools have lacked for all these years. It will at least give the individuals in the church an edge when competing with unskilled labor or if necessary for side hustles.
While I would agree, as a contractor I can tell you that no Church wants to actually pay their people. They expect free labor all day long. So do most of the people that attend a Church - they will pay the CHEAPEST laborer per hour, and then end up paying more, rather than paying an honest laborer the higher per hour that will be cheaper or a higher up front bid because the laborer knows what he's doing and knows what the work is involved....
It's like tariffs. Everyone says that they want made in America. Until they actually see what those prices entail, the hardships that means, and that they have to change their way of life to make that happen and stop having Chinese slop in their life.
Sorry, but I'm a very, very dollar poor electrical contractor. But I cost more than a handyman. And it shows. I do good work, and it gets done on budget, on time, to code.
And, except for my current, local community, I have never worked for a parish or Church. They refuse to hire. They always would rather hire a random guy, and often complain about quality or expense later. Same with people that attend parishes and half the people in my community. They hate someone they know actually making money.
So, while it sounds good, and I'm actually trying to build a local trade school in my community, them working locally might not happen. Because people sometimes just suck and want slave labor prices.
Thinking on a bit more you’re right. However, I was thinking of a more volunteer thing… I didn’t think about the pay per se just the skill. My church was building a new building and did much of it in house and looking back on it I could have really used those DIY skills be it carpentry or construction. Once, the church had a run down business donated to it for a tax write off and we flipped it. It doesn’t have to be that though. It could be sheds or wooden playground equipment. Amish trades kinda come to mind. As I said though, you’re right; I was/am just thinking aloud.
When I was a waiter large church groups were some of the worst tippers. Never will forget a 20-top with a 2$ tip and church card for the three of us servers. So if they’ll skimp that by God they’d skimp you.
I've had the same kind of thing suggested in my community. Honestly, I'm against it when it comes to certain trades and certain people.
I've been in meetings where my community has wanted to do a "homsteading guild" where we teach young men how to do the basics of all the trades. I flat out told them I refused to do it for mine, electrical. There's too much that can go wrong - and no one not trained in electrical even understands why - as was demonstrated when they shouted me down for saying there's no reason a young man can't change out a fan on his own.
So, for instance, I've just had to come behind people trained "how to do electrical" by 65 year old general contractors that have been "building homes" for their whole lives. These guys don't know how electricity works at all, they basically just know "how they've been taught" and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So, I've had them change out said fan. Well, the house was wired so that the white wire was the switch leg powering the fan - IE the person running the wire only ran one romex down to the switch, so it was a 'neutral switched circuit.'
The young man wiring the fan didn't pay attention, simply rewired all the wires back color to color, and direct shorted the circuit. It was so bad, that when the home owner turned on the light switch it would spark so badly it would burn her son's hand THROUGH the plastic switch plate while tripping the breaker!
Then the home owner still gets angry at me for charging $100 an hour to fix the mistake the other guy made, and people get angry at me for not training people not to do basic electrical.
So yeah, Your neighbors and Church people can suck sometimes.
And I bussed tables at 14-16, I feel you on the tipping.
True, my pastor is the local electrician and almost stubbornly wants to wire anything to do with the church. We forget just how dangerous a socket can be. Especially normies like me.
We’re blessed with some construction guys too. My old landlord, a brother in the church, he was a Honduran guy getting his sons to help him flip houses. Walking a *fine* line between teaching his kids skills and values or using child labor to roof the house next door.
PS- Though an immigrant, FULLY turned to Christ. Awesome family.
Do you think there are some skills that would work for this homesteading guild? Just maybe not electrical? I’m kinda curious now how’s it going.
I don't like the idea of it being an organized thing and thinking that any child/young adult can just know. I'm an advocate for apprenticeships for trades. Getting paid for work, and paying people for the work. On all of it.
Also, all the trades have areas where you come across non-standard situations where lives can be ruined. I know people that have put shark bites in their walls when plumbing their own house. It blew during a freeze. . I'd never do that. I'd spend the money simply to run all my pex to a master supply area, because that's how I've seen it done by people that know what they're doing. But I also know I'd still make mistakes, because I'm NOT a plumber.
Same guy I had to argue for an hour not to share neutrals on his circuits so his children didn't accidentally kill themselves if they ever inherited the house, worked a circuit, or accidentally overloaded the neutral somehow. People just don't know the stuff they're doing when they're not trained in the trades they're working on, and I've seen enough to acknowledge that with myself too.
Same with Carpentry. I can do a lot, but I'm not a framer. I know enough to be dangerous for others, or very slow and steady on my own. That's how I view all trades.
"So the question to Rod Dreher is a simple one. What are the churches doing to address the spiritual, cultural, and political concerns of young white men? Men, who are often drowning in a sea of despair and spiritual neglect. Where are the programs? The groups? The outreach? The community support? Where are the answers? Better yet, where is even the faintest attempt at acknowledging the issues plaguing a significant required to maintain a healthy community?"
I've met Dreyer in person and discussed things with him. Nice man, in all the good and bad connotations of the word. He is a spiritual libertarian, which means he always has the wrong answers to the right questions.
I'll be forthright in that I did not watch all the video. If you think that politicians cannot offer you answers, then you have a different worldview, and have not grown beyond rejection of the Enlightenment. You're still a spiritual quietist. If you think that there is not a religion in our Empire, I think you're crazy - there is one, and it is enforced. It might be in the process of shifting - just this weekend I had two companies tell me they had changed hours for Good Friday.
And, as you say, what are the Churches doing for young men? The leaders? What are the laws and politicians doing to support the Churches? What are the communities doing to support the Churches? Where are the societies to support the young men? We are like individuals, a leaf here, a branch there, cast off and adrift without a tree!
This is why I had a note the other day stating that I don't think that we have a true society or culture in America - because we don't have these things, really, en mass, around us. We don't have towns or villages or cities where there is true consensus or support for the families, understanding about what laws are, religion, culture, real young men getting things done and with a vision of what their lives will be like once they grow into families. And a means of really getting that done!
So, while I like Dave, and don't know him NEARLY as well as you, I admit that he's wonderful at building bridges in our community online. But I think sometimes that's also his weakness - being polite when he should push.
Rod is frustrating for me because I want to like him.
And that’s completely understandable.
If he was my neighbor, I would consider him a project case. Someone I would always, ALWAYS, sit down, have a beer with, and talk with. I might get frustrated. I might even, at times, get heated - simply because that is my own nature and weakness. Especially after a few drinks.
But it would always come back to forgiveness and understanding, I believe. I know many like him, with the same outlooks in life, even in my own community. So it simply is what it is.
But, I can tell you, that the people with those outlooks just get sidelined in real communities. Because they stop making sense when you have to start pouring in real sacrifices, can’t jet set away from problems, and are trying to put down roots for a civilization on a generational time line as he’s really trying to think about.
That or their children move away, and they stop mattering. Which is heartbreaking. Really, truly, heartbreaking.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sadly, I'm starting to accept the reality that there is not hope for his generation. We just need to move on from them and build in spite of their obstructions, and for the ones that actively hinder us we have to mercifully remove them.
Agreed. That’s what we do in our community.
“Who are we building for? The children who will be here. If you don’t have them, or yours aren’t staying, your opinions don’t matter.”
It’s not said in the public meetings, but in the private ones it is explicit.
I listened to this conversation a few days ago, and I was amazed that Dreher seemed so out of touch. He is somewhat protected by a comfortable lifestyle in a foreign country and does not have to suffer the indignities most of us experience here in the United States; it’s arguably worse in places like the U.K. and Germany (from what I can see). Part of the problem, which you touch on, is Protestantism itself which is a revolutionary movement and implicitly (and explicitly) tears down tradition as part of its ultimate project.
I’m gonna defend Dreher here, even though I don’t really want to. I think he asks a legitimate question to Dave about what the end goal is for New Right guys. Yes, young men are frustrated, but what’s the way of dealing with this? Dave hems and haws before vaguely speaking about denouncing democracy and changing school curriculum. Sorry, he should’ve been ready for this question, and he wasn’t.
Of course, Dreher seems mainly intent on promoting himself and his work more than providing answers of his own. To be fair, The Benedict Option was huge and he can comfortably rest on this book for the rest of days. I’m not interested in his other stuff.
I think we’re all searching for concrete and coherent argumentation on these issues, but this conversation really didn’t get as far as one would expect with these two.
So here’s my simplistic (but I think correct) remedy to the male malaise, which Dave should’ve started with: ban porn. Do this and we’ve already solve 80% the problem dooming today’s dudes. More and more, this is where my mind goes when considering what would help. Everything else is fussing on the margins.
I agree. I plan to write a second part that addressed that. I also think that the question of Plurality is important, just not yet.
I have a tough time taking Dreher seriously. Radiates vanity.
This piece is so well written, Alex. It articulates the ongoing problems faced by us in this current malaise in a concise, coherent way.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As always, they provide food for my own musings.
Good piece.
I think this piece speaks very well to the protestant issue (not to say the same issue does not exist in the Catholic or Orthodox community, as it for sure does in Catholic, but I think it is not talked about as much).
While I think there are positive steps forward there needs to be a better community structure built.
From experience, Church is great and going each weekend is important but we also need to actually believe and participate in other ways sometimes as individuals and more often as community, be it fasting, praying or sacraments.
I found the Bible in Year to be a great tool for personal growth.
One large issue is that many churches have large number of boomers and that has positives and negatives.
Boomers are very competent at organizing. While there are many that will condemn them for an "easy ride" Boomers know how to get stuff done. They know process and they know what they are doing.
Boomers however are generally socially liberal. They value toleration of multiculturalism or sexual degeneracy.
And Boomers will also do everything in their power to make you defend their legacy.
There needs to be a separation of Christianity from Liberalism generally and a formation of groups within church (Fraternal and Maternal orders) that are that learn from but reject the boomer Truther regime.
Further it should also be examined if it is time for churches to remove tax exemption (this may be a problem more for Canadian churches)
I have seen many times when running the church as a Charity seems to have become more important than doing Actual Charity. By which the church just becomes a managerial system rather than a institute or bride of Christ.
I agree with Auguste Meyrat that banning porn would be a positive good. Something else that I think is also important is obtaining skills. One’s church could have construction projects/programs that schools have lacked for all these years. It will at least give the individuals in the church an edge when competing with unskilled labor or if necessary for side hustles.
While I would agree, as a contractor I can tell you that no Church wants to actually pay their people. They expect free labor all day long. So do most of the people that attend a Church - they will pay the CHEAPEST laborer per hour, and then end up paying more, rather than paying an honest laborer the higher per hour that will be cheaper or a higher up front bid because the laborer knows what he's doing and knows what the work is involved....
It's like tariffs. Everyone says that they want made in America. Until they actually see what those prices entail, the hardships that means, and that they have to change their way of life to make that happen and stop having Chinese slop in their life.
Sorry, but I'm a very, very dollar poor electrical contractor. But I cost more than a handyman. And it shows. I do good work, and it gets done on budget, on time, to code.
And, except for my current, local community, I have never worked for a parish or Church. They refuse to hire. They always would rather hire a random guy, and often complain about quality or expense later. Same with people that attend parishes and half the people in my community. They hate someone they know actually making money.
So, while it sounds good, and I'm actually trying to build a local trade school in my community, them working locally might not happen. Because people sometimes just suck and want slave labor prices.
Thinking on a bit more you’re right. However, I was thinking of a more volunteer thing… I didn’t think about the pay per se just the skill. My church was building a new building and did much of it in house and looking back on it I could have really used those DIY skills be it carpentry or construction. Once, the church had a run down business donated to it for a tax write off and we flipped it. It doesn’t have to be that though. It could be sheds or wooden playground equipment. Amish trades kinda come to mind. As I said though, you’re right; I was/am just thinking aloud.
When I was a waiter large church groups were some of the worst tippers. Never will forget a 20-top with a 2$ tip and church card for the three of us servers. So if they’ll skimp that by God they’d skimp you.
I've had the same kind of thing suggested in my community. Honestly, I'm against it when it comes to certain trades and certain people.
I've been in meetings where my community has wanted to do a "homsteading guild" where we teach young men how to do the basics of all the trades. I flat out told them I refused to do it for mine, electrical. There's too much that can go wrong - and no one not trained in electrical even understands why - as was demonstrated when they shouted me down for saying there's no reason a young man can't change out a fan on his own.
So, for instance, I've just had to come behind people trained "how to do electrical" by 65 year old general contractors that have been "building homes" for their whole lives. These guys don't know how electricity works at all, they basically just know "how they've been taught" and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So, I've had them change out said fan. Well, the house was wired so that the white wire was the switch leg powering the fan - IE the person running the wire only ran one romex down to the switch, so it was a 'neutral switched circuit.'
The young man wiring the fan didn't pay attention, simply rewired all the wires back color to color, and direct shorted the circuit. It was so bad, that when the home owner turned on the light switch it would spark so badly it would burn her son's hand THROUGH the plastic switch plate while tripping the breaker!
Then the home owner still gets angry at me for charging $100 an hour to fix the mistake the other guy made, and people get angry at me for not training people not to do basic electrical.
So yeah, Your neighbors and Church people can suck sometimes.
And I bussed tables at 14-16, I feel you on the tipping.
True, my pastor is the local electrician and almost stubbornly wants to wire anything to do with the church. We forget just how dangerous a socket can be. Especially normies like me.
We’re blessed with some construction guys too. My old landlord, a brother in the church, he was a Honduran guy getting his sons to help him flip houses. Walking a *fine* line between teaching his kids skills and values or using child labor to roof the house next door.
PS- Though an immigrant, FULLY turned to Christ. Awesome family.
Do you think there are some skills that would work for this homesteading guild? Just maybe not electrical? I’m kinda curious now how’s it going.
I don't like the idea of it being an organized thing and thinking that any child/young adult can just know. I'm an advocate for apprenticeships for trades. Getting paid for work, and paying people for the work. On all of it.
Also, all the trades have areas where you come across non-standard situations where lives can be ruined. I know people that have put shark bites in their walls when plumbing their own house. It blew during a freeze. . I'd never do that. I'd spend the money simply to run all my pex to a master supply area, because that's how I've seen it done by people that know what they're doing. But I also know I'd still make mistakes, because I'm NOT a plumber.
Same guy I had to argue for an hour not to share neutrals on his circuits so his children didn't accidentally kill themselves if they ever inherited the house, worked a circuit, or accidentally overloaded the neutral somehow. People just don't know the stuff they're doing when they're not trained in the trades they're working on, and I've seen enough to acknowledge that with myself too.
Same with Carpentry. I can do a lot, but I'm not a framer. I know enough to be dangerous for others, or very slow and steady on my own. That's how I view all trades.
With humility.